July 2008

Your letters:

The Great Yorkshire Boundary Debate

We are in full agreement about the ancient Yorkshire Ridings, and would still prefer them to be restored. Bureaucrats are too handy at giving away or changing things that don’t belong to them. We as Yorkshire people want the North Riding, West Riding and East Riding restored back to where it has been for many years.

Norman and Dorothy Harrison, Hull

For my sins I was born and brought up in Wiltshire and I remember learning about the Ridings when I was at school. When they changed the boundaries in 1974 I was living in Bristol and I could never understand why the government couldn’t stop messing about with the country and I couldn’t see any benefit in it.

In 1992 I married a wonderful Yorkshireman and we finally managed to move to Yorkshire in 2001. He used to call me an honorary Yorkshirewoman because I loved the place so much. I have to say that I feel more at home in Yorkshire than I ever felt in my own county. I actually told my husband who unfortunately died in 2005 that I would never move south of the Humber again and I won’t.

I still get letters addressed to North Humberside which as you know, no longer exists and I hate it. I am passionate about this beautiful county and would vote for anyone who would put the Ridings back to their former glory.

Mrs D Huggins, Beverley

I was born in Yorkshire and live in Yorkshire. Yes it is still Yorkshire just for administration purposes – we come under Oldham which is greater Manchester. We still do everything the same, walks at Whit etc. It makes no difference what label they put on you – you’re still the same.

Keith Simpson, Saddleworth

Yes, it still rankles and will continue to do so until it is satisfactorily resolved. I am of the age (just) to be able to remember the Yorkshire of the Ridings and the carve-up of 1974. I feel for the people of Yorkshire whose areas were put into administrative areas of other counties.

The reorganisation paid no consideration to the feelings of the people of Yorkshire and their proud county and history, it was and still is a great insult. The original county of Yorkshire with the three Ridings and the City of York is still the true county area.

Unfortunately I feel the result of the 1974 administrative changes have lead to a lot of people to believe the original county boundaries have changed. This is exacerbated by road maps, other maps and literature that fail to show the original county boundary.

The faceless bureaucrats gave us the three areas called North, West and South Yorkshire and then added insult to injury by creating something called Humberside which included parts of Lincolnshire. I would also think an insult to the people of Lincolnshire. One argument used to put the Uppermill area into Oldham was that they were the other side of the Pennines and would be easier to administer with Oldham. How could they say that when the River Humber divides Humberside?

The consequences of this act in 1974 are far reaching. People of our generation remember pre 1974. As for the young generations today they have grown up with the North, West and South Yorkshire names and many think these are the true boundaries.

I live in Huddersfield and am involved in local football; Uppermill and other nearby villages have teams in the Huddersfield and District Football League which is a throwback to the West Riding days. How sad it is to hear the younger generation referring to them as coming from Lancashire and what are they doing playing in our league. I keep correcting them as and when I hear it. On a higher footballing note again how sad it is to hear supporters of Middlesborough referred to as Geordies by some people who don’t know any different. There is also Hull City who some people don’t know are a Yorkshire team.

I see on page one of the May 2008 issue a sign showing the Historic West Riding of Yorkshire. Perhaps it would be a good thing if these signs were on all the roads into the original county and also on roads into the different Ridings. It would remind people of the true boundaries.

Perhaps it is also a matter of educating people inside North, West and South Yorkshire and the people in the new admin areas of the true county boundary and also inform the latter some of us haven’t forgotten them. One idea could be leaflets or cards printed to be distributed with the facts on and the map of the original county. Also it would be a good idea if all maps printed show the true county boundary as well.

There are unfortunately some parts of Yorkshire not to be proud of but we won’t dwell on that at this time.

Stephen Haikings, Huddersfield

I still regard Middlesbrough and other places south of the Tees like Redcar, as being in Yorkshire, as I believe they are officially for ceremonial purposes.

Barbara Cooke, Middlesbrough

I would like to add my support to including Middlesbrough, surrounding area to the name Yorkshire. My friends lived in Ruislip, Middlesex, and their address was kept in spite of dealing with Hillingdon. It is ridiculous not to accept the River Tees as the boundary line with County Durham.

J B Edwards, Eastbourne

The re-organisation of local government areas (and that’s only what it was) was a classic example of politicians indulging in one of their favourite pastimes – namely drawing lines on maps and alienating local communities. This has been going on in many parts of the world since the first world war and has been the cause of many conflicts since then.

The famous paragraph ‘The new county boundaries are administrative areas…’ has been quoted many times in the last thirty-four years but this was only said to placate those who were quite opposed to any tinkering with the traditional county boundaries. Most of the changes were quite unnecessary and resulted in such strange anomalies as two Sussexes, three Glamorgans and a hybrid called Hereford and Worcester. The creation of Humberside was much resented. It served no useful purpose and it took 22 years to get rid of it. We were even told that we were no longer part of Yorkshire. Even now its boundaries still exist and we have the silliness of three kinds of Lincolnshire.

The Royal Mail changed many addresses, with no real justification, and asserted that failure to use them would result in delay to the mail. This was quite untrue but has persisted even today. We must not let the politicians get away with it.

D A Scruton, Hull

No legislation has ever been passed abolishing the traditional counties or changing their boundaries. Up until the Local Government Act of 1888, when the counties and the Ridings became local authorities, they had very little administrative power, they were little more than geographical areas. Further legislation in 1896 created county boroughs as additional local authorities. Some of these such as Mossley County Borough spanned parts of more than one county but the county boundaries were not altered.

In 1974 the counties, including the Ridings, ceased to be responsible for local government administration. However, they were not abolished nor were their boundaries altered in any way. Also in 1974 administrative areas were created. Unfortunately, these were called counties and this created much confusion, particularly as some of them used traditional county names. An example of this is the present Lancashire County Council which in fact administers only a fraction of that county.

In 1988 several of the administrative counties including Merseyside, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire ceased to be administrative but kept their Lord Lieutenancies. So far these have not yet ceased to exist. Former administrative counties, however, which ceased to be administrative in the 1990s were abolished at the same time. Examples of these are Cleveland and Humberside. Government policy is now moving away from administrative counties and many of these so called counties are dividing into unitary authorities. The current administrative Cheshire County, for example, is currently being divided into three unitary authorities.

The existence of administrative areas in whatever form do not and never have either altered the existence of traditional counties or altered their boundaries in any way. This was confirmed by Michael Portillo in 1990 when he stated, “I can confirm that the government still stands by the statement that the local authority areas and boundaries introduced in 1974 do not alter the traditional boundaries of counties. The 1974 arrangements are entirely administrative and need not affect long standing loyalties and affinities. The Commission has no intention of abolishing traditional counties, whatever the system of local government.”

Those of us who live in any part of Yorkshire should remember, regardless of the name of the local authority the boundaries remain as they have for over a thousand years.

Roy Bardsley, Saddleworth White Rose Society

The County of Yorkshire consists of three Ridings and York, all other references to North, South and West Yorkshire and even East Riding (as it stands) are merely administrative areas. The Ridings were never used as part of the address, simply Yorkshire. As a Leeds Loiner and therefore from the West Riding (one of the tallest office blocks in the City is appropriately West Riding House) in correspondence or otherwise I never refer to any part of the County, whether it be Middlesbrough, Hull, Sedbergh or Sheffield under the current titles, it is always just Yorkshire.

However, I note that Dalesman is somewhat hypercritical in so far as you conveniently missed out any county titles in the May article, but in the editorial contact page address (and elsewhere in the magazine that month) you include your address as Skipton, North Yorkshire. I commented on this once before and Dalesman’s reply stated this is the Post Office address.

Surely Dalesman could do better?

It is not just tradition that I use Yorkshire, it is a fact that well before 1974 I was born in the county (and always proud of it). When people ask me where I am from it is always Yorkshire and I cannot therefore be suddenly transferred to a funny title contained within the traditional boundary.

J T Service, Clevedon, Somerset (not North Somerset)

Despite my address I am from Yorkshire (East Riding) and came here because of work. In 1974 I was against the re-organisation and when I came here in the early eighties I was surprised to find the anti-Humberside feeling even stronger on the south side of the Humber.

Ideally I would favour a return to the traditional Ridings as administrative areas, but the cost would be very high (as it was when the present authorities were created) – can we afford it? (The Government was willing to pay then!). And no doubt some people younger than me think of themselves as hailing from the new ‘counties’ although I hope they are in the minority.

Nevertheless, there should be more recognition of the Ridings and some measures would not be prohibitively expensive: more signs like those on page 1 of your May 2008 issue – and not left to the Yorkshire Ridings’ Society, but with the cooperation (including financial) of local authorities and the Government – especially after the statement made in 1974 which you re-print on page 33 of the May 2008 Dalesman; maps showing traditional Counties – e.g. tourist office ones and Ordnance Survey; the use of ‘Yorkshire’ in postal addresses – the Royal Mail has acknowledged that the postal code is most important as far as sorting mail is concerned (too many companies are still using North or South Humberside because of outdated software); encouraging the flying of the Yorkshire flag in all parts of the traditional Ridings.

There has been some discussion of abolishing one tier of local government for reasons of economy – i.e. the District Councils (as happened when the new East Yorkshire Council was created). The boundaries of the real Yorkshire could then re-emerge from such a reorganisation. After all, the strength of feeling about our roots was strong enough to lead to the abolition of Humberside after it had existed for twenty years.

Graham Bird, Market Rasen, Lincs

Of course I always objected that London messed our boundaries around. What I want to know is what were our Yorkshire Parish councillors doing in 1974 to let this happen? Perhaps what we need is independence for Yorkshire so we can look after our own affairs.

Val Walker Jones (in exile in North Wales)

In 1974 the Yorkshire Ridings were not abolished. The 1974 Boundaries Act abolished only the councils that administered the Ridings, and created new administrations some of which were given the authority to administer parts of Yorkshire. In no way did this affect the Ridings which have been in existence for over a thousand years. The abolished councils were only created just over a hundred years ago.

I have been told that Lincolnshire had Ridings. We never hear of them now. Did they vanish from lack of use?

Don't let this happen in Yorkshire. Keep them alive by using the Ridings names. When talking about where you live say the name of the Riding not the name of council to whom you pay Council Tax!

The Dalesman could lead the way in this and prevent our heritage from disappearing.

Nancy E Hudson, Marske by the Sea

During the ridiculous boundary changes why did the powers that be feel it necessary to lose the Ridings? It has always been very annoying to me, in fact I never use North Yorkshire; I can't use Riding anymore so I just use Yorkshire. Do other people feel like this or is it just peculiar to me?

I was born and bred in Ripon where I still live but my parents were born in Southport – then in Lancashire now, ridiculously, called Merseyside.

Amanda Makewell, Ripon

I never forgave the Conservative government for changing the local government boundaries on 1 April 1974 – a significant date. The loss of Yorkshire territory, while serious, was the least of the problems incurred. The administrative chaos required the new local authorities to employ even more parasites to sort out the inevitable mess.

To revert to the status quo ante is an unrealistic dream – it would merely create more unproductive jobs. But we can express our disaffection, and keep alive the memory of the traditional Ridings, by printing on letterheads, and addressing correspondence to West Riding of Yorkshire, or East or North as the case may be. You, Sir, should set the example by adding this to the title page of the Dalesman in lieu of North Yorkshire.

Dr S A Craven, Newlands 7700, South Africa

I lived in the North Riding of Yorkshire until some faceless bureaucrat decided that we would first be Teesside and then Cleveland. I am and always will be a Yorkshireman who was not consulted and have had enough. Cleveland was only a district within Yorkshire as far back as 1068. Recently a councillor on Redcar and Cleveland Council suggested that we should forget that we were ever in Yorkshire and that any reference to Yorkshire should be dropped. What a turncoat!

Phil Maude, North Riding

click here to view Readers Letters on other subjects